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Brown Lipe


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By Shifty - Saturday, November 15, 2008 11:26 AM
Does anybody recognize this (Power Tower?)that has a breakdown of it?

Says Spicer, and Dana on the data plate, but no model #

I'd like to get it up on the bench, and take it apart.







It sits on top of my Spicer Auxillary that I took apart today.
I found a breakdown of a 7231 in a manual I have that looks like that part, and showed me where the lock rings etc. were located, but the top is completely different other than the forks.





Maybe I can find the parts it needs, and end my search for the perfect replacement for it.

Steve
By White9064TD - Saturday, November 15, 2008 1:39 PM
Shifty

Have you tried looking in the Research Library

By dashby - Saturday, November 15, 2008 2:32 PM
Looks like a 70 series at first glance.  Definately not a 1200 or 800 700 or 40  Need to look real close at the tag on the transimission for the model #.  Hard to remember, but don't think it is a 58 or 62 series.

Parts are impossible to find for most of these trans.  Probably can find bearings and make your gaskets.  We try to keep a couple of extras just for parts.

Dean

By glenn akers - Saturday, November 15, 2008 3:47 PM
dashby (11/15/2008)
Looks like a 70 series at first glance.  Definately not a 1200 or 800 700 or 40  Need to look real close at the tag on the transimission for the model #.  Hard to remember, but don't think it is a 58 or 62 series.

Parts are impossible to find for most of these trans.  Probably can find bearings and make your gaskets.  We try to keep a couple of extras just for parts.

Dean

      Dean i have seen some books on Watson but did not know what i was looking at so is that a forerunner of lipe or spicer? When was they built?
By dashby - Saturday, November 15, 2008 6:09 PM
Glenn,

As I recall (disclaimer for bad memory) H.S. Watson invented the first auxillary trans. and contracted with Brown-Lipe Gear Co. to manufacture them.  A friend of mine here in OKC worked for Watson and knows a lot of the history first hand.  He loaned me the Watson catalog and I scanned in a lot of it.

As time went by, Watson sold or lost the company to Brown-Lipe (or Spicer) and now TTC Mexico owns the whole deal.  We made some video at Drive Train Specialists a couple of years ago with John O'Neal giving the history and a walk thru of his facility.  He still had brand new 8341's with power towers on the shelf.  The oil patch keeps them busy with transimission and rear end work.

I believe Watson started in the early to mid 1930's.  I have a brochure dated 12-20-36 by the H.S. Watson Co.  "Built by Spicer Manufacturing Company".

Seems that you can Google this info and come up with the history.

By MAURICE LEGRAND - Friday, June 25, 2010 11:05 PM
Hi,

Would it be possible to discuss the old 1936 Watson auxiliary information or get a copy of it from you with you.
By dashby - Saturday, June 26, 2010 4:50 PM
Are you interested in general information or something specific?

Dean
By MAURICE LEGRAND - Monday, June 28, 2010 5:08 PM
I am interested in the Brown Lipe Auxiliaries with numbers like 31 M1 and the other models  in that series as well as the ratios.  Thanks
By farmercharlie - Tuesday, March 29, 2011 11:56 AM
I have one. I removed it from a 1964 single axle ford f 500 dump truck when the 292 broke the crank. It's a three speed as I recall and worked very well when the engine went, was far superior to the two speed axle option. I believe that the prior owner had addapted the brownie for just that reason. The tags on the tranie read:

Watson Transmission

made by

Brown Lipe Gear Division Spicer Manufacturing

Toledo Ohio USA

model 46       Serial 05409

case casting on the other side says:    C30-15-118-1 and has a raised oval with the number 17 in a square in the oval

if your interested e-mail me.

Charlie
By dashby - Tuesday, March 29, 2011 3:10 PM
Little more info.
By Tony Bullard - Thursday, March 31, 2011 1:55 AM
Here's a Watson for the closed drive shaft flathead Ford V8s.



Here's a Warford for same.



H. S. Watson Co. of Anaheim Is Acquired by Ohio Auto-Parts Maker

August 17, 1988|MARIA L. La GANGA | Times Staff WriterAn Ohio auto-parts maker has acquired Anaheim's H.S. Watson Co., a 57-year-old firm that manufactures parts for tanks and farm vehicles, company officials said Tuesday.

Dana Corp. of Toledo bought the Anaheim company for an undisclosed amount in an all-cash deal finalized Aug. 8. Watson will change its name to Spicer Industrial/Anaheim and become a wholly owned subsidiary of Dana Corp.

By farmercharlie - Thursday, March 31, 2011 4:41 AM
thanks for the info guys. I have found out that my brownie is an under, direct, over and is likely about 18% over. so I'm not sure what I'll do with it but if anyone is intrested it's available.

farmercharlie
By edpruss - Thursday, March 31, 2011 7:29 AM
Shift,

I have one like that, 6000 series I think, they look similar from a distance.  Measure some bolts across the top, ID them, I'll check mine this afternoon to see if they're the same.
By Tony Bullard - Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:21 AM
Steve, From what I can see the thing looks to be in pretty good shape. Both top and bottom. I'd strip it down, clean it up and like Dean says it's easy enough to get bearings and seal and put it back together again. Some had individual needle bearings in the idlers and they might be a little harder to get but are available. 
By Bruce Ohnstad - Thursday, March 31, 2011 11:22 AM
Now I'm way confused.  It looks like Watson was independent with its own spec sheets listing only the Watson name (not Spicer/Brown/Lipe) through the 1950s and and apparently bought out only in 1988.  But that GMC Watson sheet uses the 6231 and 6041 numbers that Spicer uses.

A lot of references use the names Spicer, or Brown Lipe (wholly owned subsidiary of Spicer, I think) for the auxiliary in their truck specs. 

Can anyone review this marketing arrangement again?  I know a couple people have, but I'm confused.  If we think of a transmission like a 6231, what company owned the manufacturing facility, what company designed the transmission, and were there marketing agreements that Watson or Spicer could put their name on the gearbox and sell in OEM or aftermarket?

At the beginning of this thread I was going to post a clever comment "maybe Brownie sounded better that Watsie" but now I don't know enough to laugh at that....

Bruce
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - Thursday, March 31, 2011 2:53 PM
This page from a 1963 Spicer catalogue should explain the Spicer and Brown-Lipe connection.
By dashby - Thursday, March 31, 2011 2:55 PM
OK--Maybe we can all get the history of H.S.Watson--Brown/Lipe--Dana and Spicer straightened out.

     The Watson of Anaheim is not involved with H.S.Watson of San Francisco.

     Our thanks to the Napco Owners Group for this info.  WWW.napco4x4.org/history2.htm

     This is a great web site for automotive history.  Check out the home page songs. lol

Well---not as much B/L history as hoped.  Will keep looking.  Dean
By dashby - Thursday, March 31, 2011 4:18 PM
Info from memory;

Mr. Watson was an engineer and came up with the idea and design for auxiliary transmissions.  I think he lived in San Francisco.  Mr Brown and Mr. Lipe had a gear manufacturing co. back East and contracted to manufacture the box for Watson and put his name on it.  Watson eventually sold all rites to B/L.

All this activity--Dana etc.--eventually sold to Transmission Technologies Corporation (TTC).  I understand that they are a Mexico Corp.

My friend, John O'Neal worked for H.S.Watson and knew the Company well.  He donated a large Watson Dealer Catalog to the ATHS library.

Dean
By DCLayne - Friday, August 17, 2012 6:33 PM
Farmer Charlie, I am needing a three or four speed brownie for my 67 h80 chevrolet. If you still have it and are anywhere near me or can ship I'd love to know pricing etc.
By edpruss - Friday, August 24, 2012 4:16 AM
I have a power tower like that, fits on a 6231 series, unfortunately the 6? is missing on your MN. Seems like the top bolt pattern is different on top for the PW, I'll look at mine if you wish-not in front of me.
By farmercharlie - Sunday, August 26, 2012 6:30 PM
DCLayne, I still have the brownie and have been offered 400 for it from a guy in Kansas that wants it for a collection. He doesn't want to pay shipping on it and would rather wait until he gets to WA or I get closer to him. As you know they are plenty heavy. If you want it call me @ 360 508 1167 maybe we can work something out.

Charlie
By Wayne64SS - Tuesday, August 28, 2012 4:39 AM
Anybody know where I can get that 22-404 3 speed auxilliary shift pattern plate posted above??? I'd also be interested in a shift pattern plate for my 3053 spicer.

Thanks,
Wayne
By Brocky - Tuesday, August 28, 2012 6:06 AM
Wayne

If you have a picture or drawing, Bub Warren in Amarillo TX can make you new ones.
By steveW - Tuesday, August 28, 2012 8:44 AM
I am wondering if anyone knows which 5 speed main box has the tall overdrive with 5th being to left and up under the steering wheel I believe ?
By dashby - Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:54 AM
See Courtland Truck Works for the shift patterns.

Dean
By gadair - Thursday, March 14, 2013 5:22 AM
Dashby...My maternal grandfather (Frank M. House) was the president and chairman of the board of Watson...He worked there before WW2, then went to war...But got stuck in the Pentagon...He was the Commandant of the Chemical Engineers and a Bird Colonel. As the war was winding down the Army wanted him to stay...They said they make him a General...he said he should have been General long ago and went back to Watson...He was an Engineer, both Civil and Mechanical. He became president of Watson around 1948 or 49. he retired around 1963. He was friends with Watson and a man named Pershing, whom I believe was a Watson investor. my grandfather also owned 10% of Watson. They were also friends and business associates with Charlie Carpenter, who was the president of Dana, which later acquired Spicer and became Dana/Spicer. In the early 50's they did good, Volume over 3 million...Primary business was power take offs...BUT...The Detroit motors got bigger with more Torque...And theit PTO's couldn't handle the torque...They did not have the capital to re-tool...They still had a viable business with the Tail Gate(Watson weightlifer) and did a lot of drive shaft stuff. There is a man on the internet who claims to have invented the Hydrolic Tailgate when he worked at Watson...He was only at Watson for a few years...I think my granpa invented it...cause I seen all the drawings...But who knows? I am somewhat intimate with the details because my mother was a bad Alky, and granpa adopted me when I was about 9 or 10. I lived with him, and would go to Watson in Emeryville on Saturdays when he had work to catch up on. I would play in the the shop...He would bring home stuff for me to play with...PTO's...U-Joints..Fuel Pumps...Gears. I became a crackerjack mechanic at a young age. I was an only child and he was, effectively..my dad...I got out of the military in 1967 and we were very close until his death in 1982 or 83.

Regards;

George W. Adair
By gadair - Thursday, March 14, 2013 10:59 AM
My understanding is that Watson made the Transfer Case that connected the "Brownie" to the Mfg. Tranny...My granpa would take the train to Toledo about every 90 days. He worked with Dana as he was a "subcontractor"...I have no idea how big Dana/Spicer would have been in 1953/54, but Watson was doing about 3 million in $ sales.
By Stretch - Thursday, March 14, 2013 3:41 PM
Can you tell me if the Watson of transmission fame is the same as the one from Watson & Mehan, the Cummins distributor?
By jimmychilders - Friday, March 15, 2013 1:03 AM
I believe the numbers you are looking for are ; Spicer 8051 ( 1st,6.25 -2nd,3.4 -3rd,1.75- 4th,direct -OD,.67 )

The other box is ??? 8251???, ( 1st 5.19 -2nd,2.95 -3rd,1.75 -4th,direct - OD,.69 )
By gadair - Friday, March 15, 2013 5:43 AM
Stretch...I don't think so...But certainly don't take my word for it.
By gadair - Friday, March 15, 2013 11:16 AM
Dashby....Would this John O'Neal still be alive...I mean Watson went down 40 years ago?...There is a John O'Neal trucking in Livermore...Which is about 40 miles from original Watson HQ...Post for me
By dashby - Friday, March 15, 2013 12:11 PM
Gadair,

John O'Neal worked for Watson and relocated to Oklahoma and started a factory branch in OKC and eventually in Tulsa. He is a walking encyclopedia for trucking technology. John donated a Watson master cataloge to the ATHS library in Kansas City.

Dean

BTW---Do you know Kenneth Adair of the LaPlant/Adair moving engineers?

By gadair - Friday, March 15, 2013 2:10 PM
Kenneth Adair no relation...Thankyou for the post on John O'Neal...Did you see my post about Frank House, my Granpa...Had I kept all the stuff I had...I "maybe" could have straightened out the whole Dana/Spicer...Watson...Connection. All I kept were the photos...The Execs of the companies....Regards
By gadair - Saturday, March 16, 2013 12:24 AM
Dashby...You mentioned Watson sold all rights to B/L, which I interpreted as Brown Lipe...I don't think so...Some of this is starting to come back to me...It wasn't the PTO's that were getting tore up...It was the aux. trannys...All was OK when Ford had a 292 with 180 lbs of torque...But when bigger motors and bigger trucks came along the Watson aux. tranny couldn't handle the torque. Watson was old by this time, Pershing (his investor) also old. My grandfather about 60. I don't think anybody wanted to front the capital to re-tool...But...Watson wasn't the manufacturer...Dana was...So there is a little "grey" area there for me. Maybe Dana didn't want to go that way. In "around" the mid 60's(I'm getting a little foggy here) Watson was sold to a man named Janin or Janon (or janish?, but Jan something) Janon had big bucks...Very wierd here...Janon drove his Porsche off the roof of a parking garage and was killed. That was about the end of it in my knowledge base.

Regards;

George W. Adair
By gadair - Saturday, March 16, 2013 12:34 AM
Dashby...You mentioned Watson sold all rights to B/L, which I interpreted as Brown Lipe...I don't think so...Some of this is starting to come back to me...It wasn't the PTO's that were getting tore up...It was the aux. trannys...All was OK when Ford had a 292 with 180 lbs of torque...But when bigger motors and bigger trucks came along the Watson aux. tranny couldn't handle the torque. Watson was old by this time, Pershing (his investor) also old. My grandfather about 60. I don't think anybody wanted to front the capital to re-tool...But...Watson wasn't the manufacturer...Dana was...So there is a little "grey" area there for me. Maybe Dana didn't want to go that way. In "around" the mid 60's(I'm getting a little foggy here) Watson was sold to a man named Janin or Janon (or janish?, but Jan something) Janon had big bucks...Very wierd here...Janon drove his Porsche off the roof of a parking garage and was killed. That was about the end of it in my knowledge base.

Regards;

George W. Adair
By gadair - Saturday, March 16, 2013 12:50 AM
Posted same twice...Pretty DUMB..Sorry
By Richard - Saturday, March 16, 2013 2:00 AM
Very interesting. Hope someone can add more info.
By gadair - Saturday, March 16, 2013 5:12 AM
Richard...I just couldn't think of anyone who might know more...I am 65 and the grandson...My grandfather who ran the company for several years would be 112...There is a guy in Vegas, who claims to have invented the hydraulic tailgate while he was at Watson...He is on Linkdin...Name McCarty(Ithink)...I am not linkdin savvy enough to know how to contact him...He was only at Watson for a few years...My grandfather would bring work home...We had a big table in the dining room where he would look over drawings and show me stuff, while I did my math homework...We were togethor, so if I got stuck on a problem...he was right there to help. I would never dispute or belittle the guy in Vegas...he may have been the guy behind it.(Tailgate)...My understanding was that my grandfather invented it...no one will ever know...And since granpa is dead 32 years now...I don't think he cares...All of this history I could have documented while my grandpa was still alive...Didn't seem important...Regards